who do not Prophesy
Prophets who do not Prophesy; The Leaders who cannot Lead
Frequently we are
being asked to believe that the new apostles and prophets on the scene
today are the budding government rule of the Church, on God's behalf.
We are told that they
are walking in such high levels of anointing and authority that they are
the leading edge of spiritual revelation and that all Christians should
heed the word of the prophets to take us into the glorious Church of the
They have, they inform
us, moved beyond the veil into a place of open seeing where they have
visions, dreams and words from God that are far beyond the reach of ordinary
However, on the eve
of world war, all we have heard from these "prophets" is confusion,
disagreement, and a mixture of differing opinions. Either
that, or silence!
This fact has prompted
some, including Rick Joyner, to try and mend the fences by reconciling
all the current opinions and telling us not to try to discern
what is right or what is wrong (!) but simply go with the flow
until it all comes together in the end (presumably after the event.)
What Rick Joyner offers
us is no more or less than the thoughts of any concerned American on the
eve of war. If he were a mere journalist we might read his piece without
However, he considers
himself to be one of the leading lights of the New Order for the Global
Church! Thousands mistakenly hang upon his words as God's direct leading
in this time of peril. But if they really were the chosen instruments
of God's word, would God not be using these men and women actually to
direct his people instead of confuse them?
Might God not speak
with a single voice so that all those who are in His Spirit would hear
the same thing - but here, not a bit of it. Apparently all the different
revelations are no problem, since God gives "different parts of the
puzzle" to this one and that.
(That was apparent
in the "prophets'" pronouncements on the film 'Lord of the Rings',
which some condemned as error and some said contained spiritual allegories
from God that we needed to heed!)
Reading the Old Testament,
one does not get the impression that Jeremiah (for example) could prophesy
a lenient attitude towards Babylon while at the same time Habakkuk (for
example) would recommend its destruction! Does God speak with a divided
Read the summarised
extract below and make up your own mind if God is indeed honouring these
prophets with wisdom beyond that of ordinary men.
(Initial note by Steve Shultz:)
[My emphasis throughout]
Please read this first
. . . Some have been saying that the prophets have been silent lately
regarding the Iraq crisis or possible war. That is partly true and partly
not. There have been some words coming forth but I have felt led of the
Lord to hold back until I could present a "unified" portrayal
of what the prophets are saying or "seeing." That time has now
come. Rick Joyner has done the best presentation that I have seen, which
addresses this situation of the differing revelations the prophets
are getting regarding Iraq. "Differing revelations?" you may
ask. Rick speaks of the prophets each, as groups or as individuals, getting
their own "pieces of the puzzle." ...These men and
women then each get pieces of God's elaborate puzzle, and they divulge
their part of what they have received. It should always be understood
that NO PROPHET has all the interpretations for each event.
Thus, Rick Joyner,
along with many others of God's wise men and wise women have been about
seeking God together regarding Iraq. Below is an EXCELLENT summary of
the viewpoints and possible ways God is, has, or MAY be working
in this situation regarding a possible war with Iraq. ... do
not try to discern who is right and who is wrong. Again-- break
the old mold and paradigm --the paradigm of incorrect thinking. . . Instead
fit the pieces together.
[MY NOTE: God
here doesn't seem to know what He's doing, according to his prophets.
He seems to be dithering back and forth considering several courses of
action. Is God really so undirected? Secondly, is discerning right from
wrong an "old paradigm" and an incorrect way of thinking? We
are asked to believe so!]
Joyner: World War III, War In Iraq,
"There is Merit to Both Sides of this Issue"
Bob Jones, a prophetic
friend who has had remarkable accuracy in prophesying major international
and national events, [but please see here!!]
has maintained for many years that World War III began with the assassination
of Anwar Sadat. ... Then in the mid-1980s Paul Cain received a word that
... what would emerge from the meltdown of communism would be a merger
of the remnants of communism with radical Islamic extremists, and it would
be far more dangerous than communism ever was. That prophecy was true.
Now we are facing just such a threat—it is more dangerous!
We Know In Part .
. . We Prophesy In Part . . .
Bob Jones has also
maintained adamantly that the Persian Gulf War was not over when it looked
like it was over to the whole world. Again it appears that he has been
right. Even so, both Bob Jones and Paul Cain are also resolute
in believing that it would be a grave mistake for the United States to
attack Iraq at this time. Why?
I have other
prophetic friends that feel this is a righteous war and that
the United States has a responsibility to act even if it has to do it
alone. I am not trying to be political, but I believe both sides
may actually be hearing from the Lord. How could that be?
In I Corinthians 13:9
it says, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part..."
So if we are going
to have the whole picture we must learn to put the different parts
together that different people are getting. Until they are put
together they do often appear to conflict.
[MY NOTE: This
interpretation of the verse is novel! Surely what the Apostle Paul intended
to convey is not that we have to fit together different "parts"
of the puzzle by comparing seemingly contradictory prophecies, but that
our earthly knowledge and gifts are limited by our humanity until the
"perfect comes" and we see God face to face. There's no excuse
for true prophets to be at loggerheads over what they say.]
Is There A Bigger
I confess that I
have a different view on this matter than maybe anyone else I know.
I also do not claim to have heard anything personally from the
Lord on this matter. I have prayed and asked Him to give me something
clear about it, but He has not. ... there is substantial merit
on both sides of the argument. Very few wars in history have ever been
a cut and dried good versus evil.
Arguments for War
- Point One: There
is no doubt that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
- Point Two: History
teaches repeatedly that the longer we wait to deal with rogue and ambitious
dictators the more costly it will be.
- Point Three: [Iraq]
value [their weapons of mass destruction] very highly, which they would
not do if they did not have an intended use for them
- Point Four: Iraq
is harboring terrorists, terrorist training bases, and is in league
with Al Queda and other terrorist organizations
- Point Five: Sanctions
and diplomatic efforts have not accomplished anything with Iraq.
War with Iraq
- Point One: War
will destroy many lives and should always be our very last resort.
- Point Two: Saddam
is not the madman that Western propaganda has made him out to be. No
dictator is a nice guy, but he has not done anything worse than other
dictators that we are not threatening.
- Point Three: Contrary
to Western propaganda, most Iraqis are loyal to Saddam and it is their
will for him to stay in power.
- Point Four: Though
it is acknowledged that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction (almost
no one disputes this), there is no specific evidence or intelligence
that he has plans to use them against anyone.
- Point Five: Never
has the United States ever attacked another country first without provocation
or being attacked. There is no legal or moral justification for doing
- Point Six: There
is no proof or convincing evidence that Iraq is in league with terrorists,
terrorist organizations, and is in fact been one of the strongest bulwarks
against Islamic extremism...
- Point Seven: Just
because sanctions and diplomatic efforts have not worked yet, maybe
stronger ones would...
- Point Eight: North
Korea is a far more dangerous problem. Al Queda is a more dangerous
My [Rick Joyner's]
MY NOTE: Please
remember that Joyner works closely with Paul Cain who has previously commended
Saddam Hussein and been received well by him - this report from Joe Chambers
and others: "What is amazing is that Rick Joyner tells all about
this [his initiation into the Knights of Malta] on a tape and includes
in the story how that a key member of this order arranged a meeting
between Paul Cain and Saddam Hussein, the President of Iraq.
He states that the leaders in Iraq as well as Saddam had heard Paul Cain
and were convinced that he was a true prophet. If Saddam Hussein and his
henchmen are convinced that Paul Cain and Rick Joyner are true prophets
then you know who they serve..." (From The End Times... Joseph
Chambers September 1998, page 3 report on this
- Point One: There
is merit to both sides of this issue. ... The real point of dispute
is not whether Iraq should be made to give up their weapons of mass
destruction, but whether a United States led invasion of Iraq is merited
in this situation or at this time. I personally do not believe
it is merited yet, but we are getting very close to the time
when it is.
- Point Two: It
is possible that stronger sanctions and diplomatic efforts could work,
but they would not have a chance without the very real threat of war
that is now looming.
- Point Three: The
weapons of mass destruction need to be removed from Iraq, but the removal
of Saddam should not necessarily be linked with this.... to leave Saddam
in place has two significant advantages that should be considered.
- 1.) The first
is the enemy you know is usually better than the one you do not
- 2.) The second
is with Saddam in power there remains an excuse for patrolling Iraq
to be sure that it does not cause any further problems in the region.
- Point Four: The
removal of Saddam from power in Iraq will almost certainly have a negative
impact on Christians and those of other religions in Iraq, where they
now enjoy the most religious freedom in the Middle East.
- Point Five: North
Korea is a far more dangerous threat to the United States and to the
- Point Six: The
conflict between India and Pakistan is another one of the most dangerous
situations in the world.
- Point Seven: The
best solution to the problem would be if Saddam would give up the "hide
and seek," with his weapons of mass destruction and simply give
them up—all of them.
The United States
has not been totally just in its dealings with Iraq either. There
are things that we need to make right that could again make Iraq the most
pro-Western, pro-United States Islamic nation that it once was.
[MY NOTE: So now evil only exists if the West refuses to apologise
for its own attitudes??]
We should remember
how the Lord used Nebuchadnezzar, to which Saddam has liked to compare
himself. Would that not be the greatest victory of all? Would that not
also be the most stunning victory for United States foreign policy?
This remains my prayer,
that the Lord would use Saddam as an example of His power of redemption
and reconciliation. That may seem naive, but I am convinced
this is the Lord's will in this matter.
Naive? You surely are. Have you never heard of the judgement of God? Do
you not think that the patience of God over Iraq has waited long enough
and that the cry of innocent blood has not reached to heaven?]
What I [Rick] Have
I still believe there
may be many parts to this picture that we do not have....There are so
many areas that are not black and white in this that I am resolved to
acknowledge to not know what I do not know, and pray for our leaders to
be given the wisdom to do what needs to be done. ...What I have
been shown was shocking to me, and that is the United States is going
to become an increasingly oppressive nation. We are going to
become more unrelenting in imposing our will internationally, and there
is going to be an increasing loss of our liberty at home. ,... there is
a rising lawlessness in the United States that will be our destruction
if not checked.
--- Rick Joyner -------
[MY NOTE: I do
agree that America is not blameless - what nation is? I do agree also
that America like all the nations of the world will become more oppressive;
that is bound to happen in the light of the ongoing progress towards the
End. But to unfavourably compare a democratic nation like America to a
repressive and totalitarian regime that poisons, tortures and kills its
own is taking things a little too far I believe And I speak as a non-American.
I wonder perhaps
whether Rick and Paul should travel to Iraq today and stand in the streets
openly declaring their opinions for and against Saddam, and also proclaiming
their Christian faith, and then we could see the religious tolerance of
Iraq in action].